Creating 1 problem while trying to "solve" another?
A former rabbi of ours--I can't remember which one--had a theory that the Conservative Movement, in an attempt to encourage observance, brought into the synagogue many practices that are traditionally observed in the home. The "congregational seder" is probably the best example--to the best of my knowledge, sedarim were always observed in the home (barring wartime, unavoidable travel, or other emergency) until roughly the middle of the twentieth century. Yes, there is precedent for this--the kiddush on Shabbat (Sabbath) and Yom Tov (holiday) evenings has been chanted in the synagogue as well as in the home for centuries. But there are more downsides to making home-based rituals communal than just the small fortune that some folks pay to go away to a hotel for sedarim (and the rest of Pesach). What happens when an attempt to encourage observance of one mitzvah (commandment) interferes with another mitzvah?
Those of you who've been reading my blog in recent months are aware that my local synagogue has been holding Minchah (Afternoon Service) on Shabbat right after kiddush in an attempt to get a minyan so that we can have a Torah reading and a chazarat ha-ShaTz (repetition of the Amidah prayer aloud with certain prayers added that one is not permitted to say without a minyan). It finally dawned on me last week that a practice that's reasonably common in Conservative synagogues but, I've been told, practically unheard of in Orthodox synagogues--having motzi (the prayer praised HaShem for bread) with our kiddush--may have caused our shul to put two mitzvot at odds.* After all, we always make a motzi with kiddush in our shul, but, unless there's a sponsored kiddush, we don't necessarily follow it with anything resembling a meal. So we're starting our meal in shul, but finishing it at home (which, for all I know, may also be a halachic problem)--but we're now interrupting our Shabbat lunch, not having recited Birkat HaMazon (Grace after Meals), to daven (pray) Minchah! Then we go home and finish our lunch. Is one allowed to daven a service in the middle of a meal?
*In the Orthodox community, it's assumed that one is going to make a motzi at home, before eating lunch. I'm assuming that the original reason why Conservative Jews very often make a motzi in synagogue after kiddush is to ensure that we actually make a motzi.
Those of you who've been reading my blog in recent months are aware that my local synagogue has been holding Minchah (Afternoon Service) on Shabbat right after kiddush in an attempt to get a minyan so that we can have a Torah reading and a chazarat ha-ShaTz (repetition of the Amidah prayer aloud with certain prayers added that one is not permitted to say without a minyan). It finally dawned on me last week that a practice that's reasonably common in Conservative synagogues but, I've been told, practically unheard of in Orthodox synagogues--having motzi (the prayer praised HaShem for bread) with our kiddush--may have caused our shul to put two mitzvot at odds.* After all, we always make a motzi with kiddush in our shul, but, unless there's a sponsored kiddush, we don't necessarily follow it with anything resembling a meal. So we're starting our meal in shul, but finishing it at home (which, for all I know, may also be a halachic problem)--but we're now interrupting our Shabbat lunch, not having recited Birkat HaMazon (Grace after Meals), to daven (pray) Minchah! Then we go home and finish our lunch. Is one allowed to daven a service in the middle of a meal?
*In the Orthodox community, it's assumed that one is going to make a motzi at home, before eating lunch. I'm assuming that the original reason why Conservative Jews very often make a motzi in synagogue after kiddush is to ensure that we actually make a motzi.
posted by Shira Salamone at 5:32 PM
25 Comments:
Very few conservative Jews will Kiddush/Motzi/Birkat at home after services. VERY few. Most traditional Jews that align conservative will likely have Shabbat dinner, but lunch? Only the most dedicated egalitarian members.
That said, Motzi at Kiddush is NOT unheard of. When there is a major Simcha, there are always rolls at Kiddush, for anyone that wants to wash (if you are going to indulge in a meal's worth of food at Shul, no reason to go home and make the meal be deli meats). The earliest Minyanim may have a sit-down Kiddush where people wash.
Historically, the early minyanim were created for men forced to work on Shabbat. The early minyan allowed them to have their Shomer Shabbos status in tact for an Aliyah or or honor, before breaking the Sabbath after Shul. Now they are increasingly popular amongst Doctors who have to do Saturday morning rounds (NOT getting into the "correctness" of them doing this, but normative practice seems to be Doctors do Shabbat rounds) go to those Minyanim.
From a practical point of view, they are done by 8:30 or 9:00, done with Kiddush as well by 9:30, and be done with rounds and home by 11/11:30, and be home when their families return from Shul.
Interestingly, this technically makes that meal Seudah Shlishit for them. Technically, I think that they can only make Kiddush if there is someone present who hasn't heard it already, but day time Kiddush is pretty lenient, so not sure.
While it is preferred to eat Seudah Shlishit later in the day, it's not strictly required, extra interesting because normally we rush to do a Mitzvah, but it has become at least customary to have Seudah Shlishit AFTER Minchah.
Just a quibble, Miami. No doctor in any of the hospitals that I know, who shows up to round on a Saturday at 9:30 a.m., is home with her (or his) family by 11:30 a.m. And that assumes the commute is meaningless.
"Very few conservative Jews will Kiddush/Motzi/Birkat at home after services. VERY few."
Miami Al, that's my impression, too. In our local synagogue, some of the older women, years ago when they were more mobile and not so concerned about having problems getting around in bad weather, used to go to one of the local coffee shops for lunch after services on Shabbat morning. So much for "traditional." I suppose that, from a halachic point of view, that's no worse than me getting on a subway on Shabbat, so I can't say much.
"That said, Motzi at Kiddush is NOT unheard of. When there is a major Simcha, there are always rolls at Kiddush, for anyone that wants to wash (if you are going to indulge in a meal's worth of food at Shul, no reason to go home and make the meal be deli meats)."
Yes, I would expect that to be the case. I was referring to the "average" kiddush. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Thanks for discussing the history of early minyanim. I've heard that the early minyan ("hashkamah" minyan?), while still serving the purpose that you describe, has now morphed to cover an additional need--it enables parents of young children to take turns attending synagogue, so that one parent can always be home with the kids. (I note from their weekly bulletin that the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale calls its 6:50 AM Shabbat morning minyan the "Shalom Bayit Tefillah," which translates roughly as "a prayer service for the sake of peace in the family.") I think some of my commenters, in a previous discussion on this subject, mentioned that their Conservative synagogues had haskamah minyanim, though I honestly don't know how common that is for Conservative shuls. If only our own local synagogue had had a hashkamah minyan, I would have made a lot less enemies, as I wouldn't have had to bring our noisy toddler to shul in order to attend synagogue services myself. During tax season, it would have made sense for me to let my tired husband sleep in (insofar as that's possible with a toddler) while I got up at some ungodly hour to go daven. Too late now--the "toddler" will be 28 this month. :)
I vaguely recall something about not eating right before davening (and not just Shacharis).
In theory, you should start and end a meal in the same place, but I think that with the proper intention at the proper time you might be allowed to finish in a different place (such as going over to your next-door neighbor's place). I'd have to look it up.
I can't put a finger on why, but I'm sure davening before bentching is right out. Why don't you bentch first, exactly?
Indeed, TOTJ Steve, being on-call 24/7 can really kill a doctor's Shabbos. :(
"Most traditional Jews that align conservative will likely have Shabbat dinner, but lunch?"
I don't think it's the "lunch" that's being skipped, is it? Everyone eats something for lunch.
TOTJ Steve,
The Doctors in my neighborhood generally have privileges at the nearby hospital. It's in the Eruv, I once walked it to visit a friend who had a baby, took about 40 minutes. The drive is about 8 - 10 minutes.
I'm sure in greater NYC, it's not this easy.
But that's just part of why life is better here. :)
"I vaguely recall something about not eating right before davening (and not just Shacharis)."
Geoffrey, I discussed eating before praying in several posts a good while back (probably over a year ago). There seem to be at least two opinions on the subject. One is that one is not permitted to eat anything before davening. Another is that one is permitted to eat a snack, but not a meal, after saying all three paragraphs of the Sh'ma. Our (most recent) former rabbi and I got into quite a discussion on that one, since he insisted that the hard-boiled egg I was eating after Sh'ma but before shul constituted a meal. He said that mezonot (any non-bread grain product) was acceptable. I didn't like that idea because, without permission to eat a meal, I couldn't eat a bowl of cereal, and would be left with pastry products as my only breakfast choice. Another rabbi (an occasional blogger and sometime commenter here) said that his approach was to *avoid* mezonot, and any other food over which one has to say a "special" (not borei n'fashot) blessing). That made sense to me, as I'd heard that one shouldn't make kiddush before completing the Shacharit Amidah prayer, and wine and grape juice, mezonot, and certain fruits require a "special" blessing. So I've settled on cashews, dried nectarines or peaches, and chocolate as my Shabbat and Yom Tov (holiday) breakfast. :)
"In theory, you should start and end a meal in the same place, but I think that with the proper intention at the proper time you might be allowed to finish in a different place (such as going over to your next-door neighbor's place). I'd have to look it up."
Thanks for the info, Geoffrey. I wouldn't know where to look.
"I can't put a finger on why, but I'm sure davening before bentching is right out."
That's what concerns me.
"Why don't you bentch first, exactly?"
The problem is that there are many Shabbotot at which our entire kiddush consists of wine/grape wine and challah, and I'm not sure that our cantor and/or my husband the Ritual Committee chair/"acting rabbi" are any more convinced than I am that that constitutes a meal, halachically speaking.
"I don't think it's the "lunch" that's being skipped, is it? Everyone eats something for lunch."
Okay, Geoffrey, obviously, lunch is in. :) It's motzi that's being skipped. :(
"Thanks for the info, Geoffrey. I wouldn't know where to look."
I'm pretty sure that whatever I read was in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch somewhere, but I don't have it handy it the moment.
"I'm not sure that our cantor and/or my husband the Ritual Committee chair/"acting rabbi" are any more convinced than I am that that constitutes a meal, halachically speaking"
A kezayis of bread requires Bircas HaMazon by Rabbinic decree. D'Oraisa, the requirement is only when eating a meal with bread until full.
"But that's just part of why life is better here. :)
Forget it, Al, I'm not moving to Miami! :) In all seriousness, we don't want to move anywhere where we'd need a car because car ownership costs a fortune.
In case it helps, that opinion is supported at least by the Rambam:
"The Torah itself requires a person to recite grace only when he eats to the point of satiation, as implied by the above verse, "When you have eaten and are satiated, you shall bless...." The Sages, however, ordained that one should recite grace after eating [an amount of bread equal] to the size of an olive."
Hilchos Brachos 1:1
Also, in 4:3-4:5, he discusses the ramifications of moving around during the meal, but I'm not sure I understand well enough to explain.
"A kezayis of bread requires Bircas HaMazon by Rabbinic decree. D'Oraisa, the requirement is only when eating a meal with bread until full."
Sigh. A fat chance we'd have, getting our congregants to do Birkat HaMazon/Grace after Meals after nothing but challah and wine when we can’t even get all of our congregants to say Birkat HaMazon after they’ve eaten a full meal. :(
Now, perhaps. But I'm sure quoting the Rambam would change EVERYTHING. ;-)
you need to stop worrying about what everyone else does and just do what is right yourself. until you move, this is your situation. suck it up, do what is halachically required, and ignore all the rest of the idiocy that life provides.
rant over.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking--I should just grab a bentcher/Birkat HaMazon/Grace after Meals book and find a quiet spot to "bentch" by myself. I can always have more to eat at home, after Minchah--I just won't have any more bread.
Geoffrey, I don't know how I managed to miss your comment quoting the Rambam in Hilchot Brachot on the subject of Birkat HaMazon. Thanks so much for posting that information.
I second/third jdub's comments.
You are very knowledgable.
You are not a Posek, nor your fellow congregants Rav. Stop rebuking everyone or issuing Halachic guideline. If someone asks a question, answer to the best of your ability, and stop worrying about everyone else.
"Yeah, that's what I was thinking--I should just grab a bentcher/Birkat HaMazon/Grace after Meals book and find a quiet spot to "bentch" by myself. I can always have more to eat at home, after Minchah--I just won't have any more bread."
Why? You're supposed to have a third meal on Shabbat. You've done Kiddush/Seudah at Shul, then at home, you do Seudah Shlishit, what's the problem?
Re Seudah Shlishit, I'm sorry for the confusion--I didn't think to mention that, even though our shul does Minchah early, the shul still provides a small Seudah Shlishit before Maariv.
"You are not a Posek, nor your fellow congregants Rav. Stop rebuking everyone or issuing Halachic guideline. If someone asks a question, answer to the best of your ability, and stop worrying about everyone else."
Good advice, Miami Al. I'll take it.
Shira,
"Re Seudah Shlishit, I'm sorry for the confusion--I didn't think to mention that, even though our shul does Minchah early, the shul still provides a small Seudah Shlishit before Maariv."
So what's the problem? Your Shul gives you an option to take lunch and/or Seudah Shlishit at Shul. You do a Seudah at home as well. What's your problem here?
I was under the impression that, on Shabbat, I could have bread when eating an "official" meal only. So I've been avoiding eating bread at home after having made a motzi at shul, in order to save my next motzi for Seudah Shlishit at shul. I may have misunderstood the rules. As it happens, it's not such a bad thing for me to avoid bread except when required to make a motzi, since yeast and I don't get along that well anyway.
one is obligated to have 3 meals. There is no prohibition against having more, as long as it is not achila gassa (gluttony).
I think the biggest problem may be getting "bentching burnout" if you're having 5+ "meals" in a day...
Shira,
If you are going to lunch and Seudah at Shul, then hear Kiddush at Shul, go home, Kiddush/Motzi/Bensch, then after Seudah Shlishit, Motzi/Bensch.
If you aren't going back for Seudah at Shul, the Kiddush/Motzi/Bensch @ Shul, then go home and Motzi/Bensch at home, all set.
If you happen to go back for Seudah Shlishit, feel free to join in, but now you don't have to.
What, no achila gassa (gluttony)? But JDub, Shabbat's when I break my diet! :)
"bentching burnout" Good one, Geoffrey. :) And true, too.
Miami Al, I'd rather stick with the rest of the gang on this one. So I'll make kiddush and motzi (and do Birkat HaMazon solo) at shul, then eat the rest of lunch at home without bread, then go back to shul later for Maariv/Arvit (Evening Service) and have my Seudah Shlishit, with a mezuman for Birkat HaMazon, right before we pray.
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